Are You a Proper United fan?

Sir Matt Busby

AUTHOR: – Mancunian Red

What right do I have to ask this or judge anyone which of course is a fair response. While I don’t think there is black and white answer to this question I do believe that people have the right to judge and there are certain criteria which defines a true fan from a glory hunter. I will try to explain my reasoning.

Many people believe the myth United became the biggest British club because of the Munich disaster. This is false United had become the best supported club after the war because of the great football we played. Prior to the war it could be argued we weren’t even the biggest club in Manchester. It was only after Busby and Murphy took over the club and put the emphasis on attack and style that United’s support started growing.


Prior to Munich in the season 1956/7 United had become the best supported team in the country:

Top 5 1956/7 season

1 Manchester United 45.481
2 Tottenham Hotspur 43.280
3 Arsenal 41.093
4 Sunderland 36.145
5 Newcastle United 35.202

After Munich and with United rebuilding United were no longer the best supported club in England

Top 5 1960/61 season

1 Tottenham Hotspur 53.124
2 Everton 43.448
3 Manchester United 38.888
4 Arsenal 34.138
5 Aston Villa 33.599

Top 5 1961/62 season

1 Tottenham Hotspur 45.576
2 Everton 41.432
3 Arsenal 34.447
4 Manchester United 33.491
5 Aston Villa 32.056

Top 5 1962/63 season

1 Everton 51.603
2 Tottenham Hotspur 47.342
3 Liverpool 42.971
4 Manchester United 40.329
5 Arsenal 32.288

Top 5 1963/64 season

1 Everton 49.401
2 Liverpool 45.032
3 Manchester United 44.125
4 Tottenham Hotspur 43.800
5 Arsenal 34.793

Clearly had Munich been the major driving force for United’s fan base it wouldn’t have dropped off after Munich and been so prominent prior to the horrific event. Moreover a little thought in to the decision making process and we know people will make a decision which football club to support on the basis of their home club or another factor which will attract them to the club. I think first young kids fall in love with the game and then choose a club if it isn’t following the club their father or another import figure in their life supports there must be a reason for someone to relate to that club.

With United it has been the Busby Babes, Best, Charlton, and Law, attacking football and playing football the right way. Leeds and Liverpool dominated football but always felt unfairly treated by the media as they concentrated too much space to United. The reason they did this was because fans loved United’s football philosophy and were drawn to it. The hatred Leeds and Liverpool fans have towards United nowadays is due to the love and respect United achieved playing football the right way even when we weren’t winning trophies!

As a youngster history or sympathy aren’t as important as watching someone do something which you dream about doing and it takes your breath away, you love to feel excited. Why support football if it doesn’t excite you? By the late 1960s United have a London supporters club with over 10,000. With the rebuilding of United after Munich and the return of attacking stylish football, United returned to being the best supported club.

Top 5 1966/67 season

1 Manchester United 53.854
2 Liverpool 46.388
3 Arsenal 42.606
4 Tottenham Hotspur 41.988
5 Chelsea 35.591

Top 5 1967/68 season

1 Manchester United 57.552
2 Everton 46.983
3 Liverpool 46.755
4 Tottenham Hotspur 42.608
5 Newcastle United 37.239

Top 5 1968/69 season

1 Manchester United 51.169
2 Liverpool 47.348
3 Everton 45.958
4 Arsenal 38.423
5 Chelsea 37.613

Top 5 1974/75 season

1 Liverpool 45.966
2 Everton 40.021
3 Leeds United 34.822
4 Newcastle United 34.614
5 Manchester City 32.898

United were in the old 2nd division Average home attendance 48.388.

The essence of United is style and attacking football. And that is why we have become the best supported club in the world. I have no doubt we also have glory hunting fans that support United because the clubs success they associate with their success. But most fans support United because of the football we play and how we play the game.

I don’t think it matters a jot where you come from whether its Manchester, Birmingham, London or Africa I think what is important is that you understand the history and ethos of the club and desire it to continue.

I would hate the special one to become manager, I have no doubt he would win lots of trophies but at what expense? I think often his antics are unacceptable and his brand of football should be kept away from OT. I think the glory hunting United fans would love him but those of us who care and cherish our history would hate it. I also think the reason Arsenal’s fan base has grown so big is again the type of football they play over the last decade I think they have been the most attractive football team to watch in the prem and this hurts me to say. And is also a reason their youth team attendances put United’s to shame.

Football is the beautiful game United’s main objective should be to win trophies being the best exponent of attacking attractive football.

I mention this because I’m proud of United’s history the Busby era of course the fact we stuck by the Doc despite being relegated and watched a return of wingers and attacking football. The fact we got rid of Sexton because of the dour football despite the fact he took us to the highest place in the league for a decade a year before he was sacked.

And that we stuck by Fergie, many other club fans would have made sure he had been pushed way before we won trophies. Fans opinions matter I just hope it is the true fans and not the glory hunters who are heard loudest when Fergie decides to retire!

BTW as a side note this is the best evidence to prove Manchester is Red, not one season since the last war has City had a bigger season attendance than United even when both clubs shared Maine Road. And this was before social mobility, motorways or many people even having cars. How can City fans explain this……simple they cannot!!!

Would you be willing to see United win trophies at the expense of attractive football. If so why do you support United is it just because you like to wind other fans up and support a club which wins a lot?

50 Comments on Are You a Proper United fan?

  1. I hate all this ‘proper’ United fan rubbish. Its as bad as some United fans slagging people who don’t come from Manchester, or maybe because they don’t sit in the Stretford end.
    I’ve lived in Salford my entire 32 years on this planet and have supported United ever since I can remember. I followed them throught the ups and the downs. However you are basically saying that because I would prefer us to win trophies rather than play attractive attacking football I’m not a ‘proper’ United fan? Its ridiculous.
    Obviously I’d like us to do both but I’m sorry that I don’t want to end up like Arsenal. They are a mockery, play teams off the park and come away with nothing ant the end of the season. They might as well rename them the Harlem Globetrotters because thats what they are becoming.
    Why do we as United fans find the need to classify each other? I’ll never understand it. Its ironic that we support a team called United, but as fans we clearly are far from being ‘United’.

  2. ^ Peter, every opinion is respected on this website and i’m sure that Mancunian Red will respond to your comments – however, I don’t think the blog is meant as an attack on a type of fan at all.

    Thanks for contributing and hopefully we can start a good debate.

  3. Great article.i’m from Nigeria & it was Utd’s wing football that first attracted me,even though everybody in my house supports arsenal.winning trophies is secondary but important as i want to be entertained first.and just like you,i wouldn’t lyk Mourinho succeeding Ferguson

  4. I really don’t think the poll is set properly.
    Having an attacking style of football is important, but what separates United’s and Arsenal’s paths is the attitude. We didn’t give up back then, we’re not giving up now.
    And as much as I dislike Mourino, he has that in him. He is a winner. And his teams attack and defend pretty well, the ultra-defensive Mourino is a bit of a media shananigans.
    We’ve grinded out 1:0 wins just as his teams have.

    The real issue with Mourino’s coaching/managing style is the lack of interest of building a winning team, again and again, season after season.
    I don’t see him watching an academy game in the rain, I just can’t picture him there, watching kids, watching the future.

  5. ^ The poll is my fault as I set it. I guess the whole point of it is ‘would you sacrifice style for trophies?’ – You can argue it goes hand in hand, but as your will see at the Emirates, that isn’t always the case!

  6. The poll does seem misleading but to be honest, the title sums up the article. ‘Are you a proper United fan?’ shouldn’t be a question you are asking. It shouldn’t matter if you like attacking football defensive football, if you are from Salford or Sydney, if you go to one game a season or to every away game. As long as you a cheering on Red Army on a matchday then you are United in my book.

  7. ^ I think the blog raises a few issues Peter. Style vs. Quest for Trophies is one (which I led the poll with) but also, as you say, what type of United fan you are.

  8. So are you saying you would be happier playing football like Barca at the expense of not winning trophies?

    The argument is solid that United’s support has been based on attractive football AT least until Fergie reign of success at any rate but I remember the 0-1 win at Newcastle Schmiechel was superb and Cantona scored the winner and for a United fan that game was superb but we didn’t attack.

  9. Spurs were popular in the 50s and 60s a bit of a shocker. Back to the post. Good point about Manchester being red, where did you get these stats from?

    I’m with you in that football is an entertainment and also didn’t know that’s where the Leeds hatred come from they were envious of United’s respect even when they were the dominant force eh.

  10. I find this article confusing and slightly odd

    Firstly, what do attendance figures for matches prove? They certainly don’t reflect anything to do as to how we have garnered such massive support. If it was just about a style of football then surely Ajax would’ve become the best supported team in the world?

    The truth is that the Munich story & death of the Babes gave us great sympathy around the planet, and many outside of England started following us because of this, culminating in our success in 1968. You can kid yourself that Munich had nothing to do with it…but you’re wrong.

    Of course in the last 20 years our success has boosted our fan base once again to new levels…a form of glory support? In a way…yes. But so what? Theres no such thing as a proper fan. Some Geordie will tell u only proper fans stand at matches in arctic weather with their tops off. It’s all quasi rubbish. Find a team you like, and as long as you stick with them then you are indeed ‘proper’ ..and that’s from a bona fide 4th generation season ticketed MUFC supporter. Amen.

  11. Guys just to confirm – the poll isn’t the main talking point of the article. I used a subject that is discussed in the post and used it as a poll.

    Style vs. Trophies – true you can have both – but Mancunian Red discusses the possibility of Jose Mourinho joining United once Fergie steps down – and you can bet your life that the traditional United way of playing, will not be maintained.

    So there are a number of interesting talking points in there and the poll focuses on just one of them.

  12. Christ such a odd, confusing article, Agree totally with what Rob said, PLUS the fact that Jose was included when it wasnt needed, in my opinion. Also are we actually playing attractive football right now? NO. Such a crap arguement tbh, the feeling may have been noble , no doubt but this article goes no where!

    PLUS – Arsenal point, the people who ‘supposedly’ started supporting them after they saw gooners playing ‘attractive football’ arent these the same ones who are now moaning and getting frustrated soo much that they even want Wenger to be sacked?

  13. Attractive football leading to fuckall = FUCKALL in the end. What we are playing can be called as say Effective football. U either become a Barca or a United.

  14. Superb read not often is there stuff worth reading it is usually rehashed from an original article from a newspaper but this is excellent. Well researched comes up with interesting observations.

    I too believe history is important and the manor in which we play our football. You make a very strong case for the manor of our football being the reason for us becoming the best supported club in the land rather than Munich or glory hunters although post the prem I don’t doubt our support has grown tremendously from glory hunters but as you say Liverpool and Leeds success didn’t enlartge their support that much and it makes sense many United fans even post the prem jumped on ship because of the football we play.

    Moreover IO like the point you make about how important the fans are in keeping a manager and getting rid of him you cite Sexton and Fergie.

    Wenger transformed Arsenal from the most boring club to the most entertaining I would not like to see United go the Opposite way.

    Excellent article.

  15. Nice piece.

    Not sure i fully agree with you on Mourinho though – you would have been hard pressed to find someone as anti-Mou as me in his Chelsea days, despising everything he did; Retiring Frisk; his nonchalant press conferences; his faux reverie with SAF, despite denigrating him at every turn (from running down the touchline in glee with Porto) to continually comparing his home record and tet-a-tet with SAF; his vengeful nature and his continual feud with the FA, and his ‘everyone and the referee is against us’ mentality …..

    But the main criterion for me, if indeed we can synchronise the departure of both he and SAF from their respective clubs, is does he have the commitment, pathos and desire to stay at the club and ride the often volatile nature of the journey – inherent in managing the worlds biggest club….If he does, and he is in it for the right reasons (and all the soundbites thus far indicate Real as a stepping stone for United in the LT), then we can – I guess – learn to love him in time.

    I also think the ‘defensive mentality’ is a bit of a misnomer; with Chelsea, Inter and Real he has often instructed his team to play with an attacking freedom and verve which is contrary to the stereotype; take Real for example and the fact his preferred home 11 consists of an attacking quartet in Ronaldo, Di Maria, Ozil and Higuain (Benzema) – they have 100% home record and are only a few points off Barca (where he took the game to them and lost 5-0!).

    What I think is more a truer reflection of his philosophy is the collective psychology and will to win he instills in his team in much the same was as SAF – this espouses itself in the passion and resoluteness we see in his teams and consequently the stunning 9 year unbeaten home record and a defence (as a team) which makes any George Graham 11 seem like one managed by Roberto Martinez.

    In short, he has everything a United manager should have, and would be the only manager IMO to take the mantle on from Fergie and not subsume himself completely in the aftermath. I think his gargantuan ego will impel him to take the challenge, and possibly just possibly, he may be the one to take us to the next level….

    ~ the ‘real’ fans may have to take the leap I have, ha

  16. Stretford End the poll is fine by me. And I don’t mind if people want to attack me. If you say something controversial you should take the criticism as well as the plaudits.

    And if people don’t understand the article that’s their problem 🙂

    Why did Cantona call OT his spiritual home, why couldn’t he cut it at other clubs? People cannot love Cantona and not understand why OT was made for him. It is the way we play football and the support we give our heroes.

    I watched every one of the 26 years we didn’t win the title. I didn’t mind travelling and paying as long as I was entertained.

    Of course you are going to get the odd game ie the Newcastle game mentioned where all we could do was defend and it was wonderfully exciting but that has to be a rarity.

    The real fans in my opinion embrace our history and our way of playing football. I remember singing Attack, Attack ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK in the 1970s we invented the song.

    I doubt many people reading this would be united fans had we not played football with style and culture and gave us moments of wonderful bliss.

    I’ll be honest if Arsenal are playing and I can watch them, I do. I think they have been fantastic to watch and they make me feel good inside because I’m watching the beautiful game at its best. I still love watching the stokes ert al but very few can play football the way United can play and Arsenal have been playing it and Barca play.

    Football fans have an input on sackings and appointments. In the past Bobby Charlton has been the key man as he was getting Fergie the job and keeping him.

    The Glazer’s will probably go for the special one as he will win trophies but I hope the United fan base will go for a more attacking manager.

  17. Cheers Vidic to United, I’ll respond later Nik you also make some important points I’d like to respond to.

  18. Don’t think style of football has anything to do with Arsenal getting better youth team attendances – having seen a lot of both teams at that level they certainly don’t play more attractive, entertaining football than United’s kids have over the last few years.

    Think the eulogising over Arsenal’s style of play in general is OTT these days – it’s all very well playing like a Diet Barcelona and sweeping aside most of the dross in the league but when you can’t reproduce that in the bigger games…. I’ll take our counter-attacking style even now, and certainly in past years.

  19. I got as far as this line (about Mourinho):

    “I think the glory hunting United fans would love him but those of us who care and cherish our history would hate it.”

    There will always be glory hunters and hardcore fans but what I really hate more anything is people who decide that their personal beliefs form the basis of the ‘true fans beliefs’, and that those who disagree are either wrong, mis-informed… or in this case glory hunters.

    …I do hope this isn’t all your doing with your life.

  20. TBH Nik I don’t think you are seeing Arsenal side objectively. They have played the best football over the last 5 years by a proverbial mile in the prem. And I regularly go to United’s youth team games and Arsenal’s lads play better football.

    I think had United been playing that way you would have been purring about them.

    The special one teams don’t play great football. I know a Chelsea season Ticket holder and fan of over 30 years said he wouldn’t renew if the special one was still manager of Chelsea the season he got the boot. Andy Jacobs from Talksport said a similar thing. Tactically he is brilliant and in the short run anyway gels a team together but his football is boring. Spain have two teams it is a poor league competitively it is difficult for him not to win games at a cantor with the players he has and funds.

    Moreover he has treated refs disgracefully. He probably will be the next United BUT I think most fans who love what United stands for the ethos of the club and enjoy watching great attacking football will not enjoy his reign.

  21. I think it’s fairly naive to suggest we didn’t get a larger fan base because of Munich. Just because we didn’t have fans from the south travelling up to Old Trafford in their hordes in 1960 doesn’t mean there weren’t people from the south who would say their team was United.

  22. this is what makes us different we should always strive for both style and glory we can accept years without glory but remember sexton we demand style

  23. Interesting read, I suppose it is obvious when you think about it, if there was a Munich type disaster today would you start supporting them? Of course not, you would have sympathy and wish them well but it wouldn’t mean you changed clubs and start supporting them so why do it then.

    Strange how we get thoughts in our head without thinking them through.

    And Arsenal’s support globally has gone OTT while the more successful Chelsea haven’t increased their fan base that much.

  24. So the sentiment of this piece is this; enjoying attacking football regardless of trophy win = ‘proper’ fan, want to win trophies regardless of style of play = glory hunter. What a load of condescending rubbish! I consider myself a ‘proper’ fan. My Granddad was a season ticket holder, my father and uncle were season ticket holders, my brother and I are both season ticket holders. I support my team with as much passion through the unsuccessful years as I do through the good times. I hurt when we lose and it takes me days to get over it. I’m filled with immense pride when we win. Man Utd is apart of who I am. It is one of the factors that defines me. But because I would like mourinho as manager and want us to win trophies you dont consider me a proper fan. Quite frankly, how dare you deem to judge my level of support for this club.

  25. I’v supported United since I was 8 and watch every game possible be it on tv, internet or on the radio if i have to. living in Ireland, I’v never been to a game in old Trafford and some people think this means i’m not a true supporter either. Either way I would not sacrifice success for a blind following of beautiful football. Ideally you can have both or a good mixture. There have been games this season that I’v found it tough to stomach watching due to the way united have played, almost leaving an empty feeling where joy of victory should be. But that is in my opinion what make united the club they are, even when they under-perform they still deliver. Compared to arsenal who can perform beyond their dreams and fail to deliver. Success without deserving it can feel empty but if we win number 19 this season and knock ciity out of the FA cup, on all accounts it will be a season to remember, mayb just not for the football played.

  26. So you can’t be a “proper” United fan whilst having an ounce of pragmatism in you? That sort of nonsensical talk makes my eyes itch.

    I’d like us to play attacking football where we can but not to be admired failures like other teams I won’t mention by name. I love to watch the games where we’re in full flow but I can also show an appreciation for games we’ve won (the semis against Barcelona for example) where we’ve been able to acknowledge that we weren’t going to win a shootout with them and show them that you can beat a team (not just hold them) by picking your fights.

    Ultimately the priorities should be thus:

    1 – Win.
    2 – Play attractive football. If you’re winning it’s your duty to both the fans and yourselves to then try and win “better”, not least because if you’re just grinding away at teams eventually they’re going to become resilient and then you’ll be FORCED to be more inventive.

    I’m not from Manchester but I was a United fan before I was even really a football fan, because my dad’s a fan. I admire that as a fan with strong beliefs about fandom you don’t fall into the usual gubbins about how unless you’re born within a pie’s thrown of OT you’re not a real fan, but you’ve just traded it for a different, equally narrow-minded belief.

    Anyway, I’ve waffled long enough so I’ll finish with a few (hopefully) more succinct points.

    – Re: Mourinho and referees, Ferguson’s not a lot better. Alex Ferguson rarely comes across as a pleasant man when it matters. Is Mourinho much worse? Or are we letting Fergie off with it because he’s ours?

    – It pisses me off when any fan of any club tries to define what a proper support is. It’s irritating snobbery. How another human being supports United has absolutely no bearing on me and is none of my business. With perhaps the caveat of offensive fans, but I don’t want them out of my club. I want them out of football altogether.

    – Football has changed. In a competetive environment you simply cannot attack all the time and be successful, and you can’t win without bruisers. Talk of “what it’d be like if we in football were all like Arsenal” is a waste of time. We’re not. We won’t be. Ever. Even Barcelona don’t attack as much as everybody thinks they do against teams that aren’t just rolling over for them.

  27. It’s a great debate and obviously has split opinion. I think what you buy into as a United fan is the ‘style’ the club carries, not necessarily attarctive football or winning. What I mean by this is that the club has consistantly more than any other thrown up moments of magic an pure genius. In my time things like Whiteside’s goal in the cup final, Lee Martin’s late cup final goal, sparky’s double against Barca and through to the magical 99 season, the list is endless. The side never knows or excepts defeat. I think it is this magic that draws us in. The attractive football thing is a slightly different debate, personally Arsenal can bore me to tears knocking the ball from side to side with no cutting edge unless Van persie is in the team. I like to see players that can play the game but also have the devil in them, that streak of ruthlessnes and being able to handle all angles of the game. I think the point about wingers is important, they have always been the focal point of our attack, I would hate to see us line up like Arsenal with a bank of essentially 4 lightweight CM. I will sit on the fence on the Morinho debate as part of me beleives he has the right mentality for such a big job, I think he would like to win with a historic club and not just be remembered for using a sugar daddy, and I think the boring tag is bit of a media creation. On the other hand I worry about the length of time he has spent at any club and i found the media circus became quite tiresome by the end of his Chelsea reign. I think Journos did too hence creating this boring myth.

  28. Good debate. I’ve thought about this for a while before responding.

    Your argument that United’s support was built up because fans flocked to OT because of the football we played and not due to Munich is impressive. Although I do think the decision making process is complicated and there are often more than one factors which push people one way or the other. But I’ll agree that the attractive football was the primary reason.

    As the other poster says why change clubs when a disaster happens it is not logical and I know other clubs have has disasters was it Napoli in Italy? They didn’t get the support as United wouldn’t had it not been for Best Law and Charlton.

    However my main bone of contention and a question I don’t think you have covered as much as you have with the other points – Since winning the prem United’s fan base has gone potty and surely this is due to the glory hunters and the desire to bne associated with a winning team.

    I would be interested in your thoughts as I think it really is a very good read but I’d like clarification or admission that you have glossed over the reason United’s fan base has increased immeasurably since the success.

    I hope you reply and we can engage in respectful dialogue because it is rare to find posters who make me think.

  29. Good debate. I’ve thought about this for a while before responding.

    Your argument that United’s support was built up because fans flocked to OT because of the football we played and not due to Munich is impressive. Although I do think the decision making process is complicated and there are often more than one factors which push people one way or the other. But I’ll agree that the attractive football was the primary reason.

    As the other poster says why change clubs when a disaster happens it is not logical and I know other clubs have has disasters was it Napoli in Italy? They didn’t get the support as United wouldn’t had it not been for Best Law and Charlton.

    However my main bone of contention and a question I don’t think you have covered as much as you have with the other points – Since winning the prem United’s fan base has gone potty and surely this is due to the glory hunters and the desire to bne associated with a winning team.

    I would be interested in your thoughts as I think it really is a very good read but I’d like clarification or admission that you have glossed over the reason United’s fan base has increased immeasurably since the success.

    I hope you reply and we can engage in respectful dialogue because it is rare to find posters who make me think.

  30. Cracking read one of the best articles I’ve read. The United way, if people don’t understand that why support united.

  31. The biggest advantage of Mourinho would be that so long as he won at least a league title or something he would completely take the sting out of being one of Ferguson’s successors.

    Whatever you think of him, Mourinho’s self-belief is seemingly impenetrable and following on from Ferguson wouldn’t daunt him one little bit. And then even if he didn’t stay for that long a time, succeeding Mourinho isn’t the same as following Ferguson.

  32. RE Mourinho – I’ve long believed that actually Old Trafford may be almost like his homecoming. He’s always been fascinated by the history and tradition surrounding United and part of me just feels he’d probably settle at us.

  33. Thanks for the replies.

    Comment by Giggs wants his song back — March 25, 2011 @ 9:31 am

    It’s always nice when a poster really understands an article and makes great points. It is my pleasure to respond.

    Firstly I agree what you say I think decision making processes are complicated and there are lots of factors involved.

    I also think your point regarding glory hunters since we won the prem a fair one. I am sure we have picked up a lot however my argument is that Liverpool and Leeds didn’t become the best supported club in this country despite them being the dominant teams especially Liverpool whop dominated for 2 decades.

    We know they did pick up glory hunters but even when they were dominating United still picked up more fans.

    And again Arsenal’s fan base has really grown since Wenger started playing wonderful football. Moreover Chelsea’s despite the trophies the buys, the wealth hasn’t grown anywhere near the same amount.

    Again it is worth repeating as you say there are lots of factors in the decision making process however the dominant one to me seems great football.

    Madrid and Barca two of the best supported clubs in the world renowned for their football style.

    I think style and attractive football will matter most to those that pay to go and watch a team as they want to be entertained.

    I hope that answers your points – great points as well if I haven’t please come back to me. Or if you want to discuss anything I like your football brain.

  34. For me personally the attraction about United has been the romantic comebacks, the ability to pull something out of nothing with grit and determination, and most importantly the not giving up till the final whistle and the sheer belief that we can overturn any deficit.

    I think you are getting mistaken about what attacking football is. For me a brand of football aimed at scoring goals is attacking football. IMO we have been the better attacking team than Arsenal. They bore me to death with go nowhere tippy tappy passing with no cutting edge to it. It is NOT attacking football, it is seductive football played outside the box which is CLAIMED to be attacking by the propaganda by Wenger to hide behind when humiliated and defeated. Ask any Arsenal fan, which team did they love, the invincibles with the likes of Henry, Viera, Petit, giant center backs or the one which flatters to deceive now? They may be getting “entertained” now but from what i know, they were much more able to “identify” and “feel one” with the old ones.

    For me, soaking up pressure and hitting teams on the break too is breathtaking attacking football. Surely Giggsy’s goal against Arsenal in 99 was brilliant attacking? Surely the runs by Best and more recently the brilliant cutting edge counter attacking with Roanldo, Rooney and even Park is attacking? Arsenal keep possession, but do not create anything significant with it against the top sides to be called an attacking side. Flat track bullies if you like. The midfielder being hailed as one of the best in the world in Fabregas is so ineffective and practically toothless in big games that it is almost unbelievable!

    Do you honestly believe Arsenal played better football than United in 2006-2007-2008-2009? I honestly don’t! The likes of Ronaldo, Giggs, Rooney, Tevez, Valencia, Nani breaking at teams with pace is so much more attacking than threading together 40 passes, not one being able to go past the defenders and finally losing the ball and getting helplessly ripped apart to shreds on the break . The silence at the Emirates when Park scored the away goal summed it all up.

    On the Mourinho debate. I believe Mourinho will be brought in to keep winning for 3-4 years, take the sting out of Sir Alex retiring and then replaced with a long term manager who is young, vibrant, emerging with a vision for youth. Somebody like a Joachim Loew, the Dortmund Manager or even Blanc. Mourinho will take a lot of sting out of Sir Alex retiring and succeeding Mourinho at OT will be much more easier for the “right long term” manager than stepping into the shoes of Sir Alex. IF Mourinho wants to embrace the culture at OT and be in it for the long run, even better!

    Said that, i want United play attacking football, but more importantly i want to see the never say die attitude prevail, i don’t want United hiding its flaws behind claims of playing attacking football and then being bullied and making excuses.

    I think the question in the poll should be : What would you like to see :- The Arsenal passing game, or the determined performances and comebacks which show character which is much more direct?

  35. I kindly disagree. No disrespect to the author because any United fan is part of the family in my eyes. I think it’s good to generate debate amongst fans, which this clearly is. That said, I think any debate about “proper” United fans is wrong. We all support the same club, so what is the point of creating divisions amongst fans?

    I’m a former writer for Stretford-End, and I still love this blog and the start that it gave me, but that said this blog is somewhat offensive. I fell in love with United because the club and particularly Sir Alex Ferguson had a clear inherent desire to win. That determination is inspiring. Family had a great influence on me supporting United, but that mentality to was so fascinating to me. So I guess the desire to win trumps style for me. If we grind out a win, I think that’s fantastic. Does that make me any less of a “proper” fan. If so, that’s offensive.

    Even if a fan supports United because of their recent success, if they’re willing to stick with them through (god forbid) relegation, then they are still a true United fan in my eyes. What does it matter how we became United fans as long as we have an undying love for the club?

  36. Personally I think that categorising fans is dangerous territory. The idea of ‘true’ fans and ‘glory hunters’ is a bid mid-90s. It’s very natural that for anyone growing up and getting into football in the past 20 years to support United due to the success they’ve had. That’s a selling point, like the style of football United played was a selling point 40+ years ago.

    It’s an interesting debate though and a question that some fans may feel uncomfortable with but there’s every right for the topic to be discussed.

    Anyone can support United – ‘real’ or ‘true’ fans is entering murky water though. Yes history and style is important but one can’t expect kids growing up around the world today to be educated in such matters – first and foremost I grew up knowing that I didn’t like losing and the first game I saw was a United game which they won. Had United lost I’d probably be supporting Everton today as they were the opposition. Does that make me a glory supporter? Maybe but aged very very young what else does one know.

    I’m just pleased I can say I’m aware of our history and am very prepared for the fact that one day we won’t be winning trophies regularly.

    In terms of style vs. winning trophies – I think that is only really relevant when you don’t really have a chance of winning anything. Otherwise it’s natural to go for the trophy as you want to be the best. Whereas say I supported West Ham today then that debate becomes more of an interesting one as actually my team wouldn’t really be doing either right now so it’s a case of which would I like to aspire to be.

    For example I got a lot of joy from our 1-0 win over Arsenal in the league. Why? Because it was a brilliant game for people who like tactics – Fergie got it spot on and Wenger wasn’t able to do anything to stop that. Is style more important than tactics? Not really, both are equally important and somewhat interlinked.

    The name of the game today is winning – the commercialisation of football makes it so. If style was more important than everyone would be trying to like Barcelona or Arsenal (if that style of football is perceived to be the best, but that’s a whole different debate in itself!)

    Anyway, interesting debate – I’m not sure I think it matters why people first started to support United as long as they’re aware of the history and prepared for the day when things turn ugly!

  37. Comment by KDill_MUFC — March 27, 2011 @ 6:42 pm

    TBH and while no offence is meant it doesn’t bother me if people get upset by my blog. I thing a good blog is an article which offers an opinion a genuine opinion and makes people think. If it offends that is other people’s concerns I prefer to read those articles than bland ones.

    Moreover I think it is an important subject, there are critical times in United’s history, where they are at a cross roads, as many people who have read the blog and understood it and United’s fan base will be split.

    There are those which will be delighted to see United winning trophy after trophy and wont care about anything else and those who cherish our history and ethos and believe that is the essence of United.

    And just as I was educated as a youngster in to what it means to be a United fan I believe it is a tradition that should carry on.

    I have seen a lot of changes over the years and do see a desire to win at any costs by newer United fans and the type of football doesn’t matter.

    By your post I’m guessing we are very different, I respect those that have a belief and fight for it. I respected the anti Glazer campaign and joined in, I wasn’t prepared to become an FC United supporter but respected that was something they believed in.

    United isn’t one big family or if it is there are always fractions at war. You need to have a voice and state what direction you want to go in.

    If I upset some supporters who probably in their heart know of themselves as glory hunters that is their problem, it wasn’t the premise of the article but it isn’t something which is going to keep me up at night tbh that’s something they have to deal with.

  38. Comment by Scott — March 24, 2011 @ 4:14 pm

    TBH Scott I think it a lot more naive that a tragedy happens and people say ” O right I’ll change my support now and support United”.

    Football fans felt sympathy for United but tragedies happen all over the world and people require something ongoing if they are going to support a team.

    I know people who started supporting United because of Best Law and Charlton and Cantona and the Busby babes way of football or the Doc’s all out attack. However I’ve only met one person who told me he changed support after Munich. And hand on heart this is a true story – HE changed from United to City, because United were a shadow of their former self and weren’t worth watching – hence the stats United’s support went down.

    But some people believe in myths and conspiracy theories.

  39. Never come across this website before, got sent a link saying it was worth reading. It is, makes you think as several people have noted. A passionate debate, at times I think the blog’s meaning has been lost with people talking humbridge at thinking the article is an attack on them – perhaps a different title might have been better.

    That said I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it and we have been discussing the subject at work and also with friends. If you think this is a passionate argument you should have been in the pub on Saturday with us. We went on for over two hours about it with others joining in who heard what we were talking about.

    It took some interesting side tracks too, blues joined in, and Arsenal and Liverpool fans.

    Cheers for that.

    I confess I did originally think Munich was the main reason we are the biggest but I didn’t know we were the biggest before Munich and lost support after it as your statistics show.

    The Best Law and Charlton era must have been very special, I missed it unfortunately but it is talked about so much.

    The best argument that came out of our Saturday night debate – what do you talk about after the game – the result or how we played what did we do how can we score more goals, what excited you.

    At least those are the subjects we talk aBOUT THE ENTERTAINMENT THAT IS WHAT BEING A RED FAN IS TO ME AND MANY MANY OTHERS.

    CHEERS FOR THE DEBATE

  40. A well written article backed up by statistics however, I would have to disagree that you should be seen as a glory hunter because you would sacrifice style of play for trophies.

    My arguement to support this is that a glory hunter would simply support whoever they felt most likely to win a trophy at that time whereas a fan of Manchester United want our particular club to win a trophy at all costs, not just the club they say they support in order to gain bragging rights.

    Secondly I believe the desire to win trophies can be seen as a sign of ambition, not glory hunting and furthermore by wanting United to succeed with all our hearts are we not all on the “hunt” for some glory.

    Finally I believe that no matter your style of play, your reputation as a team in the long run rests squarely with your ability to back up your style of play with trophies.

    An example of this are the already mentioned Arsenal and Barcelona. In reference to these teams I pose the question do you think had Barcelona not had the success they have had during the Rijkaard and now Guardiola era they would be lauded as “the greatest team of all time” as many pundits and football fans globally are labelling them or would they have been a bit of a laughing stock Arsenal-esque? Would they currently be known as the Spanish Barcelona?

    Finally, had Arsenal won the same trophies as Barcelona during this period, a role reversal so to speak, do you agree with me when I say, Arsenal would now be respected and feared the world over like Barcelona are?

  41. Comment by manuste — April 4, 2011 @ 5:10 pm

    Hi, good post and it helps me get to the crux of the premise –

    Firstly, I think you miss understand me. The title I used I admit was to generate interest and for people to read the article. I take responsibility for it to be misleading and I apologise for that.

    Then what I’ve tried to do is defend United’s support and say look the reason why most people support United isn’t because they want to see us win trophies and have bragging rights. Especially pre 1993 and the internet as we weren’t that successful we just played the best football and yet our fan base was the best in England. And even then had a fair sized global support thanks to the likes of Bobby Charlton and George Best etc.

    The internet has no doubt created more glory hunters since 1993 because we can speak to thousands of fans from all clubs every day while at one time we were restricted to our friends regarding every day football chat.

    I don’t actually say in the article it is either or ie a glory hunter or a proper fan – I can understand the poll and title might give that impression but it isn’t the intention of the article.

    I believe in lots of different reasons to support United. I’m a red because my Dad supported United and he took me to games when I was very young. I don’t ever remember making a conscious decision to be a United fan. However I was conditioned to what values United hold and what makes them special and why they are a special club.

    I’ve also been a LMTBH and Season Ticket holder since the late 1960s and watched great football home and away and the odd season of boring football and noticed attendances tended to go up or down not so much based purely on results but how exciting we are to watch. And the chat after the game with friends was always on how we played what excited you etc.

    I also think trophies are very important but I don’t see why
    a club like United with their resources should have to put to one side attractive football to get results.

    Of course there will games such as the Newcastle game in I think it was the 95 season we got hammered by Newcastle at St James’s and won 0-1 with Schmiechel amazing. You will have the odd game things don’t gel and you are off form and the opposition are on fire when all you can do is fight. And I love that attitude, United players should always have heart. And Fergie creates winners through his attitude.

    And yes I agree with what you are saying about Arsenal that they lack the winners mentality and can never be called a great team without winning lots of trophies. However I love watching Arsenal play and personally given the choice I’d prefer to be an Arsenal fan now than when they were winning trophies via the 1-0 to the Arsenal way a number of years ago.

    I don’t think winning and attractive football are mutually exclusive. However for me what I think should always come first would be attractive football.

    And if we went in to the final of the CL against Barca and set out to play tactically and spoil the game and win or go out play Barca off the field and lose for me I’d take the later. I really hand on heart mean that.

    As a season ticket holder yourself, would you be happy seeing United every week win but play boring football?

  42. As a season ticket holder and lifelong United fan I want Manchester United to be successful, I think 9/10 times United are going to play attractive football and win a game, that will just come naturally, however if we have to play tactically to win one game, for example a champions league tie against Barcelona, as long as we have tried to play the right type of football throughout the majority of the tournament, this is fine by me because I love to win and hate to lose. In answer to your question at the end if you said to me United were to play boring football every week purposefully then I would be upset I agree with you whole heartedly on that one. However you have to be realistic, if we try to play our way around Barcelona, 9/10 we would get murdered as even the most optimistic United fan has to admit Barcelona are better passers of the ball than United and the majority of the time they play more attractive and more fluent football. You have to play the team and the scenario in front of you, not just blindly go in 4-4-2 every game and naively disregard the opposition.

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