AUTHOR: – Doron
I dislike Liverpool FC as much as the next United fan. But that’s normal right? That’s natural when there is an intense rivalry in sport. I’d be hard-pushed to find a Liverpool fan who doesn’t feel similarly about United. However, underneath the layers of rivalry, there are two very similar clubs with much in common.
I write this off the back of attending the FA Youth Cup tie at Anfield yesterday which was won by United 3-2. Reading the media reports of the game and having a quick scour at Twitter there has been a lot of focus on chants by some United fans in attendance about the Hillsborough and Heysel disasters.
It seemed a shame that these press reports were choosing to lead with titles such as “Liverpool v Manchester United youth tie marred by Hillsborough abuse” in the Independent; “Manchester United’s FA Youth Cup victory over Liverpool ends with hostile scenes” in The Telegraph; and “Sick chants, three arrests and four red cards ruin FA Youth Cup clash between Liverpool and Manchester United” in the Daily Mail. Actually, there was a brilliant game of football there yesterday, a match with passion between two rival sides. I’d rather watch games where no players are sent off but in many ways it’s nice to see that the rivalry and intensity of a Liverpool vs. Manchester United fixture doesn’t cool-off at U18 level.
Here’s the truth though about yesterday in terms of the sick chanting…
I decided to go purely for the football. I’m an avid supporter of our Reserve and Academy team and met up with similar like-minded fans at the game. There were between 300 and 400 United fans in attendance and the majority were there for the game – family and friends of the players playing or supporters like myself.
It’s sadly true that chants about the tragic death of Liverpool supporters at Hillsborough were sung about. As far as I could tell, there were no chants about Heysel. I must stress that these chants came from a minority of fans. It was actually quite refreshing to have some kind of atmosphere amongst the away fans at an Academy game; nearly all of us were singing songs about our own club. It’s also true that a few United fans were withdrawn from the stadium (and possibly arrested) for lighting a flare just before half-time.
The Kop, where Liverpool fans were seated (unless there were some above us too) was quiet on the day. I’ve not watched the full match back yet but I’m sure the chants about Hillsborough, even if only by 75 fans, would have been clearly heard on TV. It’s unacceptable from United fans however (and this doesn’t at all make the chants in any way ok) the reports in the media make it seem like this is the first time it’s happened. Indeed, sat in the Stretford End when we hosted Liverpool for the FA Cup tie in January, the chants were sung then too.
At this point, the blog originally contained the paragraph quoted below. Hand on heart, I believe I heard songs about Munich, however many Liverpool fans who were in The Kop have since told me they didn’t hear any. If I am wrong, I apologise and stand corrected. I won’t delete the paragraph as I’ll no doubt have names thrown at me but will leave it in as it’s relevant to some of the comments on the page. Of course Munich chanting happens at other games between the sides and is equally unacceptable.
“What also bothers me, is that none of these reports mention that chants about Munich were sung by a minority of Liverpool too. Consider this, The Kop is full, it holds just under 12,500 fans and I’m pretty certain I can hear Munich chants. There’s bound to be more than the 75 people singing around me about Hillsborough chanting about Munich opposite me, yet not a single one of these reports mentions it. Indeed, John Aldridge, a Liverpool fan, local lad and former player quite rightly expressed his disgust at the chants by some United fans on his Twitter page; however when questioned by myself and a few other Reds why he wasn’t also condemning the Liverpool fans who chanted about Munich he said nothing and ignored the question. I’m not suggesting John advocates Munich chants, even without knowing him I can safely say he’s equally as disgusted by them – any human being would be.”
Upon leaving the stadium I was greeted on the Anfield Road by Liverpool fans shouting “Munich bastard” at me (before any clever so-and-so asks how Liverpool fans could get round from The Kop so quickly, I was one of the last to leave as I’m on crutches and The Kop started to empty before full time).
Full Time in the game
The United players come and applaud the fans
It felt somewhat disappointing to wake up this morning and read online stories that lead with the behaviour of a minority of United supporters. When Liverpool fans chant about Munich, I’m sure likewise, it’s just that, a minority. Whilst I dislike the club, the fans are fine in general. On this blog we’ve had very pleasant comments from Liverpool supporters last weekend. I spoke with some Liverpool fans there in a pub after the game and didn’t have a single problem. The taxi drivers who took me to and from Anfield were both Liverpool fans and engaged in some light banter about the rivalry between our two clubs.
It’s sad that these chants exist, but they’ll never go away. Only on Saturday did journalist David Stringer say, “On a train up to Manchester, packed with Arsenal fans amusing themselves by singing the Munich song. Despicable.”. At that same game, songs were sung about Arsene Wenger. Unfortunately we’ll never rid the game of these chants, however we can condemn them.
It’s right the papers pointed out that a few United fans sang chants, it’s right to expose them.
Upon reflection, four red cards in the game was a good thing for the rivalry – it runs deep. It’s a good rivalry between two successful and ultimately very similar clubs. Passion was running high yesterday and the game itself was exciting, something that seems lost by the media reportings.
Fans on either side of the Liverpool-United divide won’t rush to admit it but there are many similarities between our clubs: legendary and successful managers; 18 league titles; European successes; traditionally manual labour Cities; a passion for Youth football (as I wrote about last week); and finally tragic disasters that will never be forgotten.
It’s that final similarity that fans should respect more than any other. Munich, Hillsborough and Heysel will never be forgotten in football. It’s an absolute credit to Liverpool fans and says a lot about them that on the recent anniversary of the Munich Disaster many of them tweeted respectful things.
As for our media, poorly researched and inaccurate match reports about yesterday aside (for example the Telegraph suggest Tunnicliffe is our captain when Thorpe is) – it’s good they reported the misdemeanour’s of the fans yet United fans shouldn’t be the only ones made an example out of.
In light of yesterday’s events and with the anniversaries of first Hillsborough and then Heysel coming up in the next two months, United fans should pay their respects to the loss of life. Chanting about them isn’t clever. Chanting about Munich isn’t clever. Sometimes football and rivalries should come second.
Any comments that include derogatory statements about Munich, Hillsborough or Heysel will be deleted
“Unfortunately we’ll never rid the game of these chants, however we can condone them.”
Do you mean condemn?
Otherwise, a very enjoyable read. Agree completely on media coverage; do you think in part it is because if 75 out of 300 are chanting one particular song it is obviously much more audible than if 150 out of 10,000 sing?
Decent article. Surely you mean condemn not condone in a couple of places though?
e.g. “Unfortunately we’ll never rid the game of these chants, however we can condone them.”
@Nick yes of course, I did mean condemn – my apologies, has been changed
@Roger Ramjet yes of course, I did mean condemn – my apologies, has been changed
No worries 🙂 Myself and a bunch of friends are going to head to the next round vs Chelsea, do you know when it is going to be scheduled?
@Nick
I’m not sure if a date has been set yet, I too will be there
great read, liked ur point of view. read a liverpool blog about the game yesterday. the writer was also going on about the hillsborough songs sung and nowhere in the article does it mention the chants sung about Munich, the author doesnt even mention the existence of munich chants! only some fans that commented on the blog had the same view as you do (it goes both ways for both sets of supporters). it irritates me how they try stereotype united supporters.
Why are you writing lies? I was at the game, and there was no Munich chanting in the kop. Outside the ground i can’t comment, but certainly nothing inside!!!!
I’m a Liverpool fan and feel sorry for the Man U fans who just want to support their team. Its only a minority of idiots who chant these sick songs. And your right I saw a Liverpool fan singing about Munich in the FA Cup which was terrible and I’m ashamed he’s a Liverpool fan. I dislike Man U of course but chants like this severely crosses the line.
haha, and by they i meant the author of that blog
As a Liverpool fan, I have to agree with this article but there have been times when we too have been singled out when in fact both sets of fans were responsible. That is just the media for you though, you cant really expect any kind of accuracy from those idiots.
I personally think the United Liverpool rivalry needs to be tackled. It will never go away but it seems to be getting worse and much of it is tit for tat. The clubs are just not doing enough and they need to sit down and discuss how matters can be improved before it really does go too far. We dislike each other. Ok, we hate each other and the rivalry isnt just going to go away but it needs to be cooled a little and Im sure there are ways of doing it if the clubs actually communicated.
@ABE was audible for me, I guess depending on where you sat you may not have heard – like I said, it was a real minority, was a shame to be greeted with it outside.
@lee I agree, what do you think can be done? Ban the fans who sing the chants? Give the security personnel the right to remove anyone seen singing it at the games?
I was in the Kop so i’m guessing I was a bit closer than you!!
@ABE fair enough, I won’t argue but I know what I heard. Either way, I hope you agree with the sentiment of the piece, the chants are unacceptable from both fans
I totally aggree with the sentiment, but on this occaision there was definately no Munich chants mate. However I’m not saying that’s not always the case. I took my 11 year old daughter to this game thinking there was no chance of this garbage , sadly I was wrong. I saw the crew responsible for the chanting , typical sad teenagers who probably don’t even know what it’s all about!!
@nameonthetrophy
No idea, its a difficult one. I think as you said, you start by threatening anybody caught singing a munich/hillsborough song with a 1 year ban and actually see the punishment through. However, I think it needs to go further than that. I dont know how it could be done but Im sure discussions between the 2 clubs would yield some decent ideas.
@ABE sure, I stand by that I heard stuff and I came out the stadium to be greeted with “Munich Bastard” by some morons, chances are those individuals were doing the same inside. Like I said, I don’t want to argue it with you – do you think there is anything the clubs can do about it? I suggested in the comments to someone else that security personnel are given the freedom to eject people seen chanting that kind of stuff
Not a bad read that, we will always hate each other but as we all know we both see each other as real football clubs and we have so much in common as pointed out in your blog.
To be honest with you this is starting to get out of hand, the chants yesterday did not belong at this game or any other game.
I think the two clubs and their support need to address this head on, I have to agree that it will never go away but that does not mean we should not try.
At least one Manc blogger has the balls/decency to cover this mess. Cheers.
That’s rubbish mate , you don’t even know if the idiots actually went the game. My guess would be probably not, as they are scum and probably save there money to use on drugs. As for the clubs doing anything, it’s really a difficult one to tackle. Yes, you can eject when it’s one or two shouting, but when you get say 50 , it becomes harder to police without a major incident. You know the sad thing is , in the last round we played Southend and there was not one police officer on duty inside the stadium. So sad
I’m from Lpl, am a longstanding Lpl season ticket holder, and have worked in Mcr for many years. Good, fair article. Basically your fan base contains a percentage of idiots and ours certainly does. I’ve stood on the Kop in the 70s and listened to the dreadful ‘runway’ song being sung, I now sit and hear horrible stuff sung about Gary Neville’s mother, I’ve was at Old Trafford the week after Kevin Keegan’s father died to hear the Stretford End ask “Keegan, Keegan, how’s your dad?”, I’ve heard many chants about the dead of Hillsborough (a tragedy I was in the middle of), and I’ve sat in a Lpl coach in Turin in 2005 listening to my ‘fans’ singing about “39 Juventus fans standing on a wall” – and these are ‘fans’ who will howl in outrage when faced with Hillsborough insults; the hypocrisy is staggering. No matter who they support, they’re all sick idiots – obviously with a limited experience of life because otherwise they would not celebrate death and dying. Fortunately, I know many decent Lpl fans and likewise ManU and City fans (through living around Mcr) who can enjoy a keen and deep rivalry but also keep it in perspective. This is an issue that both clubs don’t want aired, so thaks for writing about it.
@ABE it’s the nature of the game isn’t it? Were fans even segregated when you played Southend? Our other ties haven’t had segregated seating
@Tony – thanks for your comment. You’re spot on with all of it. I stayed around the Lime Street area and went to a couple of pubs before getting the train home – like the two taxi drivers, all the fans I met were perfectly normal football fans who simply wanted to discuss and enjoy the game. Sad the minority make the headlines and ruin it all.
I’ve been Liverpool fan for 43 years and i have NEVER sang about Munich niether has anybody who came with me. There is no place in football for these appalling chants. Respect, Dignity and Integrity should be on and off the pitch. We are the most successfull clubs in England the rivalry is legendary but leave out the horrible chants.
I was at the game, and as you have said the Kop was very subdued, I honestly don’t think I heard any Munich songs. It really wasn’t that type of fanbase from a Liverpool point of view, it was parents and children – But if you think you heard it I will accept your point.
The article is a good read, and does hit some fairly strong points, the fact remains that the rivalry betwen the two clubs is directly linked to the similarities history, pride, passion etc, in fact the rivalry is actually between the two cities.
I still think the intensity of the rivalry was born out of jealousy, first of all from a United point of view during the 70’s and 80’s and then as Liverpool supporters looked on with envious eyes during United’s success in the 90’s and 00’s.
The chanting is horrible, but I think anybody who knows enough about the events will not participate, the problem is the new generation of suporters from both sides don’t know enough about any of the tragedies.
If the clubs try to enforce ejecting supporters for singing these songs, it will only lead to double standards, were Liverpool supporters get ejected at Old trafford despite United singing Hillsborough songs, and United fans getting ejected at Anfield despite Liverpool supporters singing Munich songs.
But until either club is brave enough to eject a hundred of their own supporterd from the stadium, during what is arguably the biggest game in the football calendar, things will not change.
ABE:
I’m not doubting your version of events, but I have read on various Liverpool fan sites that there were indeed Munich chants sung by a minority of Liverpool fans. And, of course, one only has to look at youtube to find dozens of videos from both sets of supporters mocking each others tragedies, even in recent meetings between the two clubs.
It is unacceptable whoever does it, but I do believe that it is fair for either set of supporters to point out the symmetry between the minorities from each club when the media clearly decides to blame one side but not the other. The very first thing that I always mention whenever someone points out that (a minority of) Liverpool fans have been signing songs about Munich at a particular game is that (a minority of) United fans are equally to blame.
While it is probably wise that both sides attempts to police their own supporters, neither side should be hypocritical about it in an attempt to score cheap points against the other club.
Finally, the only reason that this incident has been given the coverage that it has is because John Aldridge has spoken out against it. I support him in that, and I doubt that he even realised that it was also happening the other way, but it doesn’t help when such a high profile figure from either club, with obvious access and influence in the media world, paints such a misleading picture of the issue.
I don’t blame him for the media’s typically lazy approach to journalism, but I do hope that all of those who have that kind of influence will stop being selective in their outrage and in the future condemn both sides equally. Failing to do so will only cause resentment in the supporters who will inevitably feel unfairly maligned. This isn’t really a Liverpool vs Manchester United issue, this is an issue of (largely) decent and respectful supporters vs those who wouldn’t know the meaning of the words.
I too am a Liverpool fan who can respect other decent human beings who just want to go to a football match without hatred breaking out – it’s not about tit for tat – it should just be about the game win or lose – I personally admire Bobby Charlton and one of his greatest regrets ‘not playing for a team managed by Shankly’ – Busby of course was a great Liverpool player – I wish the hatred (but not the rivalry) would go away I too have known some pretty decent MU fans – it is about time the clubs sorted it out… mind you I hope you lot are waitng a while yet for No 19…Aldridge was spot on being upset for the families exposed to bigotry and hate (that goes for either BTW)
Doron – I’m from the other side of the tracks and a Kop season ticket holder to boot. I can say without hesitation that me and my mates agree 100% with your piece – there are tw*ts on both sides and ours are just as bad as yours. It’s a shame but it’s the same in life – the arseholes mess it up for everybody. It was a cracking game yesterday – and life would be pretty dull without each other! You horrible so-and-so’s….
I was at the game in the middle of the KOP have to say I heard the Munich chanting both before and during the game but did not hear anyone chanting or singing about Munich. I will ask my friends who attended the game with me but I would have expected them to have mentioned it at the time if they had heard anything of that nature. We decent fans would like that sort of behaviour to be stopped without question. From my perspective then I think you are mistaken. The most abusive response I did hear was the normal reply to the United chant. For the most part there was even an extremely well kept restraint on any foul or abusive language as the families present had young children with them. Contrary to popular belief we are for the most part made up of as many decent people and nomarks as your own supporters. Can’t speak about what happens outside the ground. We have been mistreated at Old Trafford and the police didn’t turn a hair so perhaps that needs to be addressed also.
Its a sad fact that every team has its bell ends that claim to follow the team and its an even sadder fact that these same bell ends despite being a minority tend to always manage to overshadow the game. Personally and like most human beings i would imagine I draw the line way before singing joyfully about the deaths of other human beings. As long as we are the majority these prats will never win!!!!
@Alan Thomson
Cheers for the comment! It really was a top top game. A few of us (well myself and the regular reserves/academy goers) were saying that at 2-0 we couldn’t see ourselves coming back into it at all. I feel like a lot of neutral football fans would have watched it on LFCTV as it was free, should have been a great advert for youth football. I’m still yet to watch the game back, only seen highlights of the goals. We have two more league games coming up in the next month and hopefully they’ll be as good!
Correction, I meant to say that I heard the Murderers chants from the MU Fans before and during the game. Didn’t hear any Munich chanting at all.
@Soulman fair enough pal, unless I’m going mad (it’s possible, believe me!) I did hear it. A few United fans, including one on the comments hear says that they’ve read on some Liverpool fansites that it was sung at times. Regardless, even if you think it wasn’t sung and I think it was – we both know that at the first team games it gets sung. I had great experiences after the game chatting with Liverpool fans in the Lime Street area and 99% of fans on both sides of the divide are like that – just normal football fans! It’s the abusive ones who give us a bad name
I’m a life-long Liverpool fan who was brought up with a set of Man Utd supporting relatives. Whilst I’m the first to be anti-Utd in everything, I am coming to the conclusion that the two clubs need to do something about the current situation.
The media are a load of sensationalists, far too keen to report any negativity to hype a story (Carra’s tackle, offensive songs, Fergie’s silence, etc). So we can safely rely on the media to make the situation worse if they can. They have no interest is mending bridges.
Clearly the rivalry is greatly enhanced by the huge similarities between the two clubs (perfectly explained elsewhere). Therefore I agree with other contributors who’ve said the clubs should act together to try to lessen the situation where rivalry turns to hatred.
So we should call on both clubs to act to make this rivalry manifest itself in a sporting sense and non-other.
Anyone who watches either team will know both sets of fans have a minority who disgrace our teams with these chants. I have heard my fellow Liverpool fans do it many times. Although it was only 50 or so united fans yesterday it was a youth game, they were sat with families, and there was no provocation coming from the Kop. It wasnt your fans finest hour.
I do agree with you about the game, and also about what our teams have in common, unlike chelsea we are both true football clubs with real supporters the majority of who are decent people. Its a pity the clubs cant find a way to isolate and ban the people who cause these problems.
I am a Liverpool fan who attended the game (and have since watched the reply on LFCTV).
I too did not hear any Heysel chants from the United end, but I certainly did hear Hillsborough chants. I must stress that even from the Kop, I was aware that it was a small minority of scum who were singing these ‘songs’ and not the majority of united fans who had turned up to watch (what was an excellent passion filled game).
I certainly DID NOT hear any Munich chants from the kop, however I am aware that individual scumbags will say things after the game with regards to the Munich disaster.
The vast majority of the fans around me were young children who were probably not even aware of the Munich disaster, never mind any ‘songs’ about it.
I hate Man United as much as most reds but theres a line between rivalry and idiocy and would like to point out that any respectable Liverpool fan would ensure that any ‘fans’ spouting Munich chants would be greeted by a fist (possibly) and ejection from the ground.
@nameonthetrophy Aye, the boy Morrison’s winner was a great goal. Looks like there’s a few more on here who want the rivalry without the hatred. Who knows – one day common sense might break out…PS It’s Thompson not ‘Thomson’ – another example of United fans taking the pee!!
Glad you had some positive experiences to take away with you and there seems to be some decent talent coming through. Hopefully we can at some point get back to the emphasis being on the humour, decent chants, songs, great football and not having a clue who the ref was.
TonyBarretTimes Tony Barrett
@
@JimBoardman I agree with a lot of that piece but there were no Munich chants whatsoever.
From twitter, times journalist
Its getting to the stage where I think Manchester United and Liverpool should get together and say that if the chanting doesn’t stop on both sides there should be a mutual agreement to disallow away fans for the fixture at both Anfield and Old Trafford for one season. And if it doesn’t get curtailed significantly, go through with that. After one season re-allow away fans at the two fixtures with the same proviso. Frankly, the dignity of both clubs is being destroyed by this and a mutual effort to try and end it should be on the agenda.
@ABe if you refresh the blog you’ll see I have added a paragraph mate
good article and agree with most points, up here they have tried to stop sectarian songs at rangers and celtic games with some success,if it was highlighted in match day programmes that caught singing the vile chants and you will be ejected it would be a step in the right direction,but saying that would need permision from other 18 clubs to put warning in their home programmes because man utd sing them at every game
@Alan Thompson my apologies!!
I was in the Kop and didn’t hear a single ‘Munich’ chant (One of my mates told me there was a stupid idiot, about 18 doing an ‘aeroplane’ where he was sat. but got told to stop it by fans around him. He didn’t hear any Munich chants either. To be honest, the only thing I could hear from the Manchester United fans was ‘United’ and the like – but I’ve heard from some of those nearer that Hillsbrough and Heysel chants were sung. We all felt sorry for the genuine Manchester United fans that were there when the flare went off – some dads in the away end got their kids out of the way and appeared to leave – which is a shame if they didn’t come back.
There was also apparantly a sizeable bunch of Manchester United fans walking up Everton vally singing some pretty distasteful stuff according to my mate that was walking that way up to the ground.
I got the feeling most of the those watching were proper fans seeing a Youth game and that about a couple of hundred idiots went there to cause trouble, sing rubbish and act like idiots.
Shame that you see such things at Youth games of all things.
I’m a ST at Anfield, it was a lovely day, plenty of action in the game – why do these idiots have to try and spoil everything for everyone else? Either their own fans. Idiots all.
@billy the problem seems to be beyond this fixture too. Look at say the chants aimed at Wenger, not just be United fans but say Spurs or Chelsea fans for example. It’s a problem in football in general
@Andy cheers for your comment Andy. As you say, it was a great game and I think the majority of United fans there merely wanted to watch the football. A few Liverpool fansites mention that a minority of fans did Munich stuff as you mentioned.
Chanting aside, it was nice to see some passion in the game itself between the two sides.
nameonthetrophy
It is a problem throughout football. However the nature of this fixture is that its the biggest in English football and the hatred is getting too much now, it happens systematically, its absolutely out in the open and it is affecting the dignity of both clubs. My sense is that it will never be stamped out completely as there will always be individual idiots who will resort to these chants at some points in some games, but I do believe a threat of punitive action will concentrate minds, especially if it is done through a joint statement of action by both clubs. As it stands, the hatred is just rising exponentially and these incidents make it worse because it goes round and round in circles…..one side chants the song about Munich or Hillsborough and then the other says, well they do it so we’ll do it. The hatred is getting to really disturbing levels now.
@billy
Do you think the media are partially to blame? Another fan said on here:
“The media are a load of sensationalists, far too keen to report any negativity to hype a story (Carra’s tackle, offensive songs, Fergie’s silence, etc). So we can safely rely on the media to make the situation worse if they can. They have no interest is mending bridges.”
Personally think he makes a really important point
Thankyou for bringing this problem up on the net.I support Liverpool but have great respect for Bobby Charlton, so read his autobiography. The book brings home how the Munich disaster affected so many, and those that survived think about this very sad event every day of their lives. Not really knowing the details of each disaster and it’s impact on so many people is half the problem. Fans have to be educated about the right and wrongs when going to a football match. After all we had an anti-racism campaign and then the respect campaign.